Proof #4: Think About Science

December 13, 2007 at 4:52 am 51 comments

Brain’s introduction:

Notice what happens when anyone is “miraculously cured”. A person is sick, the person prays (or a prayer circle prays for the person) and the person is cured. A religious person looks at it and says, “God performed a miracle because of prayer!” That is the end of it.

A scientist looks at it in a very different way. A scientist looks at it and says, “Prayer had nothing to do with it – there is a natural cause for what we see here. If we understand the natural cause, then we can heal many more people suffering from the same condition.”

In other words, it is only by assuming that God is imaginary that science can proceed.

His conclusion does not follow from his premise. He forgets that God works within nature; therefore it is not necessary at all to assume that any miracle had a supernatural cause.

First, God does not necessarily heal in response to prayer. We have covered that topic already. God heals according to His will; and what we ask for in prayer must be in accordance with His will. We must be also be faithful and obedient, which none of us are (Rom 3:23). So why should anyone automatically assume that God performed this miracle because of prayer? No, certainly God had reasons of His own independent of our prayer.

Second, understanding the natural cause of the miracle is very important. There may be a way to help thousands, or even millions, of people with the same medical condition. Anyone who wants to end the story with the miracle and assume that prayer healed this person without investigating what this could mean has no desire to better the human race.

It is a flawed premise to automatically assume that science can only proceed if God is imaginary. Science is about discovering the order imposed on the universe. That order is created by God. Properly applied, science can actually bring us closer to God.

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Proof #3: Look at Historical Gods Proof #5: Read the Bible

51 Comments

  • 1. Samuel Skinner  |  February 1, 2008 at 4:46 am

    This doesn’t prove god exists! It is simply- if he exists you can’t discount his existance.

  • 2. reluctantfundie  |  June 8, 2008 at 9:46 pm

    I don’t think he’s trying to prove that God exists, just that Marshall Brain has no proof that he doesn’t exist.

  • 3. Luke  |  June 13, 2008 at 3:53 am

    He forgets that God works within nature; therefore it is not necessary at all to assume that any miracle had a supernatural cause.
    —This statement contradicts itself. God is supernatural; Therefore, if a supernatural force is working through nature as you claim, then you have to assume that any “miracle” ultimately had a supernatural cause.

    Properly applied, science can actually bring us closer to God.
    —Science does no such thing. Science does not comment on the supernatural.
    The only way a person uses science to bring them closer to God is when something happens (or happened) that they don’t understand, and then they say “God did it!!” That’s not what science is about. Where knowledge ends, religion begins.

    God heals according to His will; and what we ask for in prayer must be in accordance with His will.
    —This is such a bland answer. This boils answering prayers down to “yes, no, maybe.” With that answer, you can never be wrong. If everyone on earth suddenly became atheist and never prayed again, do you honestly think anything on earth would change and seemingly “miraculous healings” would cease altogether? I don’t think so. If there is no God to begin with, then everything has a natural reason.

    We must be also be faithful and obedient, which none of us are.
    —What?! If God heals according to his will, and we must be faithful and obedient, but none of us are, then God isn’t healing anyone because we don’t fit the criteria for him to have the will to heal.

    And Reluctantfundie, No one can prove that God exists. Just remember, the invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.

  • 4. White  |  July 1, 2008 at 2:08 pm

    Yes we don’t fit the criteria for Him to heal. That’s why if He did, its called grace 🙂 Invisible and non-existent look very much alike huh. Can i say that air is non-existent. Or maybe your brain too? heh

  • 5. God doesnt believe in athiest  |  July 1, 2008 at 4:03 pm

    hi luke…are u 100 percent sure there is no god? if it is so..then ur thinking is illogical..prove me god doesnt exist…maybe i will also prove u to be non existent also

  • 6. God doesnt believe in athiest  |  July 1, 2008 at 4:05 pm

    its not because of who i am…its because of who u are..jesus

  • 7. I am with god 100 %  |  July 4, 2008 at 6:10 pm

    hi guys..woah i am so happy there is a lot of people defending christianity..i only want to say..Christians are not egoistic people..we just want ppl to know god..know his love..Bless all non believers to know god’s love and receive christ in jesus name..amen

  • 8. PedroV100  |  July 6, 2008 at 9:55 am

    luke youre fucking awesome!
    btw trying to disprove god is the wrong way to look at it. ABSOLUTELY nothing points towards the existence of a god. therefore there is absolutely no reason to beleive in it:

    “one cannot prove that ‘that there is not a Barbie doll on the Moon’, there is no evidence for it, and
    so there is no reason to believe it. If you replace ‘Barbie doll on the Moon’ with ‘a god’, the argument is identical, and equally well founded.”
    -James Randi

  • 9. PedroV100  |  July 6, 2008 at 10:02 am

    furthermore, trying to disprove supersticious beliefs like prayer can be done really easily as marshal brain explains. it is pretty unfair to classify the effectiveness of praying as untestable and still assume it works in any way.

  • 10. White  |  July 6, 2008 at 3:57 pm

    lol pedro. I’m interested in talking to Luke (though he might not wanna talk to me) but you’re so lost i dunno how to talk to you -.- Its not like you can ‘dis-prove’ God either…

  • 11. Anti-Devil  |  July 6, 2008 at 5:35 pm

    Hmm, pedro i wonder why humans believe in ghost although science cant prove it and not believe in god when there are so many evidence and miracles which only can explain that god exist?pedro am i right?am i right to say that u dare not put ur faith just because u fear god might not be true?ask and it will be given.seek and u will find…it is impossible to please god without faith…if god chose to appear right now in front of u..there would be no need for faith

  • 12. Mark  |  July 6, 2008 at 11:42 pm

    @Pedro:
    Absolutely nothing points to the existence of of God?
    Then why the crap is existence?
    If God does not exist, it’s a mystery, if God does exist it makes perfect sense. You probably don’t know what existence means, so I don’t think this will be of much use to you.

    The ontological argument (highly simplified)
    1. God is that which nothing greater can be conceived
    2. It is greater to exist then to not exist
    3. Therefore, God exists.

    That is a highly simplified version of the argument.
    I could go on for hours but I have better things to do.
    And before you whine, Dawkins did not refute this argument, or any other argument (except perhaps the watchmaker nonsense), heck he’d be laughed out of any philosophy class if he presented that refutation publicly, even with an atheistic teacher teaching.
    Counter arguments, anyone?

  • 13. Luke  |  July 7, 2008 at 1:03 pm

    White says: Invisible and non-existent look very much alike huh. Can i say that air is non-existent. Or maybe your brain too? heh
    –Air exists and is very visible. Get an electron microscope. Go out and breathe on a cold day. Boil some water and watch the steam. Smoke a cigarette. Where’s YOUR brain? I’m sure you know the 3 states of matter. Liquid, solid, and Gas.

    God doesnt believe in athiest Says: hi luke…are u 100 percent sure there is no god? if it is so..then ur thinking is illogical..prove me god doesnt exist
    –Hi. Are you 100% certain there is a God? What’s your argument and where’s YOUR proof that he exists? Until any God’s existence is proven, then there is nothing to disprove. You can’t disprove something that doesn’t exist to begin with. The burden of proof is on you. Until then, God is imaginary.

    I am with god 100 % Says: we just want ppl to know god..know his love
    –In other words, Christians go around shoving their God and religion in people’s faces. And I know his “love” alright. Read the old testament for examples of his genocidal “love.” Like the flood, where God was sorry he even created man and wiped everyone out, including innocent babies and children except for a few people. That’s a loving God for ya.

    PedroV100 Says: It is pretty unfair to classify the effectiveness of praying as untestable and still assume it works in any way.
    –Couldn’t have put it better myself. Prayer is the epitome of superstition and fits the definition extremely well. Look up superstition in the dictionary and apply that same definition to prayer.

    White Says: Pedro, I’m interested in talking to Luke (though he might not wanna talk to me) but you’re so lost i dunno how to talk to you -.- Its not like you can ‘dis-prove’ God either
    —I’ll talk to ya, it’s no problem. I’m always up for debate 🙂 But as I said above, how can you disprove something that doesn’t exist in the first place? You can’t prove or disprove the invisible man who sits on my shoulder and talks to me. You just have to have faith in that what I’m saying is true, much like you do with the Bible. Does that make it true?

    Anti-Devil Says: I wonder why humans believe in ghost although science cant prove it
    –Belief in something doesn’t make it true. Perhaps there is a natural reason people “see” ghosts that we don’t yet understand. I find it ridiculous that ghosts are “stuck” in a house, or a certain area forever. Or that the sole purpose of a particular ghost is to remain in a house just to mess with people. What is a Ghost, and what is it made out of? If a ghost is a soul our a spirit, and you go to heaven or hell when you die, then why is God letting people’s souls stay behind as ghosts in some kind of “astral” world?
    –Basically, you have to discern for yourself what is true and what is not. If you don’t question anything and just always take it at face value, then you’ll believe anything.
    –Take aliens and UFOs for example. Many people have filmed and photographed UFOs or have supposedly been abducted. If just ONE of these thousands of people are telling the truth, and have had a genuine UFO sighting or abduction that isn’t a hoax, then aliens are real. What do aliens believe in? Do they believe in a God, or do they know better? Why are they “blessed” more than us with space travel? What makes us so special if there are other intelligent beings? (I’m not advocating belief in UFOs, just throwing out thoughts and ideas.)
    —The point is that it doesn’t matter what you believe. Whatever is, just simply is. And unlike God, there’s at least some evidence for Ghosts and UFOs. Believe what you want to believe, but don’t be surprised if it is questioned, ridiculed, or analyzed to death.

    Anti-Devil: and not believe in god when there are so many evidence and miracles which only can explain that god exist?am i right to say that u dare not put ur faith just because u fear god might not be true?ask and it will be given.seek and u will find…it is impossible to please god without faith…if god chose to appear right now in front of u..there would be no need for faith
    —There isn’t any evidence at all for God, so it’s certainly not “many evidence” for God. The Universe and our existence is not evidence of God, and neither is the Bible. Miracles are not evidence of God. It is all coincidence. Nature works just fine without the interference of any God. If the ignorance of nature gave birth to the Gods, then knowledge of nature is calculated to destroy them. Whatever you cannot easily understand, you call God.
    –And Yes, if God appeared, there would be no need for blind faith. So why is there faith in the first place if he can just appear? He apparently appeared and talked to a bunch of people in the past according to the bible, so why has that changed now? There was no need for faith back then if God was supposedly appearing to people and talking to them.

    Mark Says:
    Absolutely nothing points to the existence of of God?
    –Nope.
    Then why the crap is existence?
    –It just is. No God necessary.
    If God does not exist, it’s a mystery
    –Sure. But just because you don’t understand something, doesn’t mean “God did it.”
    If God does exist it makes perfect sense.
    –Give someone ultimate and unlimited power to do whatever they want whenever they want, and anything can make sense. At least until you start analyzing a few things. I’ll tell you what doesn’t make sense about God.
    –1:) Where did God come from? (I already know you’ll say “He always existed,” but please tell me how that is possible.)
    –2:)Why did he create earth and humans in the first place, long before Eve ate off the “tree of knowledge?” What’s the point?
    –3:)What was God doing in the infinite amount of time he existed long before he made Earth and humans? Shall I go on?

    The ontological argument (highly simplified)
    1. God is that which nothing greater can be conceived
    –That is to be conceived in the imagination. I can conceive of God’s God. Does that mean God has his own God? Does simply “conceiving” something make it true? Absolutely NOT.

    2. It is greater to exist then to not exist
    –Of course it is. What does this prove? If we didn’t exist, we wouldn’t be here to know the difference.

    3. Therefore, God exists.
    –Completely untrue. The ontological argument is nothing more than a biased argument for the “God did it” syndrome and proves nothing.

  • 14. Mark  |  July 7, 2008 at 5:43 pm

    yeah, I knew it. You don’t know what existence means, you don’t understand the ontological argument, and I’m outta here!

  • 15. White  |  July 8, 2008 at 5:29 am

    i wish i can be outta here too, but ehh… Luke is a nice guy 😀

    ‘It doesn’t need a God, it just is’ pretty much answered the ‘God just is existent’ question right? 🙂

    That’s right, you can’t prove or disprove a bottle of coke is on the moon. But i believe god exists, outta blind faith at first 🙂 but after that, God showed more than once that He exists. He’s so great, its absolutely impossible to be coincidence.

    He’s either an invisible magician, or God ^^

    And your argument is weird :S how to you disprove something that doesn’t exist in the first place? why doesn’t it exist in the first place? becos its proven not to exist, huh -.-

    ‘Taste and see that the Lord is good.’ I dared to taste. No harm anyway. And He’s goooood 😀

  • 16. White  |  July 8, 2008 at 5:46 am

    oh wait Mark! i want your email first xD you seem like a really nice guy to talk to about God haha

  • 17. luke  |  July 8, 2008 at 5:15 pm

    yeah, I knew it. You don’t know what existence means, you don’t understand the ontological argument, and I’m outta here!
    –I understand the ontological argument perfectly well. You act like if I understood it, I would miraculously believe in God. Sorry, man. It doesn’t work that way. You’ll have to do better than the simple ontological argument to convince anyone who doesn’t already believe in the first place. And I know perfectly what existence means. After all, I do exist.
    –Anyway, see ya.

    but after that, God showed more than once that He exists. He’s so great, its absolutely impossible to be coincidence.
    –How did he show you he existed? Did he appear in front of you? Did you hear his voice in your head? Or did you just pray for some obscure thing and take some natural occurrence as a “sign” for an answer to some mundane prayer by reading into something too much? Kind of like praying for it to be warm and sunny tomorrow, and then when it’s warm and sunny, you say God answered your prayer.

    how to you disprove something that doesn’t exist in the first place? why doesn’t it exist in the first place? becos its proven not to exist, huh
    –There’s not one shred of reliable evidence that there is a God to begin with. The universe and life is by far any solid evidence for a God, and the Bible isn’t evidence for a God no more than any other religious book is evidence for the existence of any of the other Gods you reject. What can be asserted without evidence, can also be dismissed without evidence.

  • 18. Mark  |  July 8, 2008 at 6:34 pm

    1. No you don’t. You have a horrid understanding of it.

  • 19. Anti-Devil  |  July 8, 2008 at 7:03 pm

    Luke…u really need faith..u are faithless.i’ll pray for u..Where does feeligns come from?There must be a greater being to judge us humans..or else logic..feelings and all the otehrs wont be able to exist..and i believe IT TAKE MORE faith to belive that there is no god and yet the earth can exist and even exist until now AND even have so much things that “everything that exist now is by chance”need greater faith to believe it..Luke i wonder if u feel empty..u wonder…ppl who have god tend to live happier..they love god almighty love them..we are so loved and honoured..

  • 20. Anti-Devil  |  July 8, 2008 at 7:06 pm

    look at the beautiful sun!=D if it was a few miles further or nearer to earth,the consequences would be bad…look at the wonders and the beautiful design of the whole universe..all these are by chance? i bet u get a 0.000000000000001 percent.and maybe less then that..i think it taek greater faith to believe there is no god?Luke u are an agnostic=D

  • 21. Anti-Devil  |  July 8, 2008 at 7:07 pm

    Luke at least i know u are interested..seek and u will find..ask and u will be given..the lord wan u in his kingdom

  • 22. Luke  |  July 9, 2008 at 12:47 pm

    Mark Says:
    1. No you don’t. You have a horrid understanding of it
    –The argument is a bare assertion fallacy, as it offers no supportive premise other than qualities inherent to the unproven statement. This is also called a circular argument, because the premise relies on the conclusion, which in turn relies on the premise.
    –And don’t presume to tell me what I do and do not understand. Like I said, you expect me to immediately believe in a God if I somehow understood the fallacious ontological argument like it’s something you have to “interpret” correctly. That argument is no better than ANY other argument for the existence of God that I haven’t already heard in my entire debating “career.”

    Anti-Devil says:
    Luke…u really need faith..u are faithless.i’ll pray for u..Where does feeligns come from?There must be a greater being to judge us humans..or else logic..feelings and all the otehrs wont be able to exist..and i believe IT TAKE MORE faith to belive that there is no god and yet the earth can exist and even exist until now AND even have so much things that “everything that exist now is by chance”need greater faith to believe it..Luke i wonder if u feel empty..u wonder…ppl who have god tend to live happier..they love god almighty love them..we are so loved and honoured..

    —I used to be a Christian and had faith. Then I started thinking critically about everything down to the last detail. Then all of a sudden the Bible, God’s “plan” and purpose for us started making less and less sense in the big picture because of so much inconsistency.
    —You pray while I think.
    —Feelings come from us. God doesn’t mess with our brain’s chemistry to make us feel things like joy or depression and more. That would be imposing on our free will and thought. I don’t want some God messing with my brain and emotions.
    —Nah.. a God takes more faith to believe in for many reasons. First of all, the universe exists. It’s here, and we can see it, and while the origins and true cause and nature of what caused the big bang and matter to come into existence is yet unknown, it is unreasonable to suggest that some guy with magic powers to create did it. (I say “guy” because we refer to God as “him.”) If the universe’s existence needed a creator, and we, as a conscious, intelligent being needed a creator, then a God needs a creator. It’s foolish to assert that our intelligence and existence needs a creator, but that an intelligent God did not need a creator.
    —If God exists, he requires a body. What kind of matter or energy is he made of? Where did whatever material he is made out of come from? Where do his powers come from? How can God create something from nothing in the first place? When God creates, just where exactly is this matter coming from? How did he become intelligent if there was nothing to learn from? What was God doing long before he created this universe, the Earth, and us? So here we have this “being” who is intelligent, exists from apparently no creator, and has supernatural powers to make stuff out of nothing. Now THAT takes a lot of faith to believe in.
    -Who says that whatever caused the big bang, hydrogen atoms, protons, and electrons HAS to be an intelligent sentient being?
    —And no, I do not feel “empty” inside. I don’t feel the need to worship anything, and I certainly find it ridiculous to believe that we are born with an inherent metaphorical “emptiness” caused by a God.
    —To say people who believe are happier than nonbelievers is no more to the point than saying a drunk man is happier than a sober one.

    if it was a few miles further or nearer to earth,the consequences would be bad…look at the wonders and the beautiful design of the whole universe..all these are by chance?
    —This argument is nothing more than saying “if things were different, then they would be different.” Besides, if we were closer or further from the sun, do you think it’s impossible for life to exist at all? Life can thrive in the most inhospitable conditions of either extreme heat or cold. Our physiology would be different in order to accommodate the changes in temperature and environment thanks to that little thing we call evolution. People seem to think that the universe and planet was made for us, but in reality, we were made for the planet; Meaning that if things were different, then they would be different. No God necessary, or required.
    —And out of the billions of galaxies, stars, and even MORE planets orbiting around those stars in the universe, do you honestly think that we are the ONLY life? Why did God waste so much space in the Universe if we are so special? People are arrogant to believe that we are the only living things in this universe, and that it was made for us, and only us by some God.

    Luke u are an agnostic
    —Sure, but after my conversion to Atheism and then my later “re-interest” in finding evidence for a God or Creator, I’m sorry to say that all the people I’ve debated with intelligently, they have only further pushed me away from Christianity and that God. If there is a creator or a God, then there is something else going on outside the whole “heaven/hell test” that the Christian God seems to have created us for. Something that’s far beyond our understanding that is not written of in any book, or known by any man. I’ve looked into the “New Age Spirituality one with the universe” stuff. And to basically summarize the new age spirituality into one sentence, it pretty much says that we aren’t humans having a spiritual experience, but spiritual beings having a human experience, and it seems far more likely than any God conceived of in the imagination of man. The best part is that there’s no “God” to worship, no dogmatic laws to follow, or no need to fear a God or eternal punishment from one. But do I go rushing in head first into belief in it with no evidence for myself? Absolutely not.

  • 23. Anti-Devil  |  July 9, 2008 at 3:49 pm

    What if there is really a god?and there is eternal punishment?Will you regret being like this?No offence..but just a curious question,brother

  • 24. Mark  |  July 10, 2008 at 1:31 am

    The ontological argument is too complex to argue here. Hell, it’s too complex for many people, so I say forget it. That is a simplified, bare bones version.

  • 25. White  |  July 10, 2008 at 3:51 am

    answer me mark 😦

  • 26. White  |  July 10, 2008 at 3:58 am

    anyway, God doesn’t need a body. He’s unimaginable

    Simply put, if God exists, we can stop asking questions about Him since we can’t understand it anyway 😛

    The objective now, for you Luke, therefore, is to ‘find’ God by other means, like His creation and science and all that.

    Problem for you though, is that all your ‘versions’ of science are all against God. Any evidence you find supporting God is immediately brushed off as ‘biased’, ‘creationism’, or ‘unreliable’ or ‘don’t know their science’. Anything against God is suddenly ‘very reliable’, huh

    The thing about science though, is that its never conclusive. what is believed to be fact 1000 years ago are normally proved wrong by now. wait till AD 3000, whats new?

    The Bible said that bleeding is not a way to heal, but 2000 years ago it was ‘science’ that sick people must be bled by leeches. which means that 2000 years ago, Bible WAS against science!! But why did people still believe in it back then, hmm? 🙂

  • 27. Luke  |  July 10, 2008 at 1:16 pm

    anti-devil says:
    What if there is really a god?and there is eternal punishment?Will you regret being like this?No offence..but just a curious question,brother
    –This is merely pascal’s wager. This is more like “You better believe, OR ELSE!!!” It’s a brilliant way to force people to believe in any imaginary God. Every religion has their versions of hell or eternal punishment. If the Christian God is the wrong God to worship, then you, as well as every Christian will regret worshiping the wrong God. And whatever hell I end up in, then it’s not my fault God didn’t leave any solid concrete evidence of his existence. And a leap of “faith” isn’t a good enough reason to believe, either. And no offense taken.

  • 28. Luke  |  July 10, 2008 at 1:20 pm

    Simply put, if God exists, we can stop asking questions about Him since we can’t understand it anyway
    -Stop right there. Don’t you dare say that God is answers that may not be questioned.
    I like thinking critically and evaluating evidence and belief structures before I jump head first in to something. It’s retarded to say I should not ask questions If I don’t understand something. I guess we should abolish all schools if you say we should stop asking questions of things we don’t understand. Whatever you don’t easily understand, you call God. This saves much wear and tear on the brain tissues.

    Problem for you though, is that all your ‘versions’ of science are all against God. Any evidence you find supporting God is immediately brushed off as ‘biased’, ‘creationism’, or ‘unreliable’ or ‘don’t know their science’. Anything against God is suddenly ‘very reliable’, huh
    -Nice hypocritical statement you got there. Anything against God is suddenly “very unreliable” to you. Just what IS the evidence FOR God?
    -What is your “version” of science that is evidence of, or proves God? Don’t say “the complexity of life and cells,” because no matter what “version” you say it is, it’s not evidence of God just because it’s complex. Science is about HOW THINGS WORK, not about who or what put them there, except in the field of cosmology and the study of what may have caused the Big Bang. But cosmologists aren’t so naive as to say “God did it” because our existence does not have to require a God, nor is it proof of a God. Evolution explains the complexity of cellular life and structures naturally just fine, and quite nicely at that. It is unfortunate for you that there is actually solid evidence for evolution, such as transitional fossils among other things.

    The thing about science though, is that its never conclusive. what is believed to be fact 1000 years ago are normally proved wrong by now. wait till AD 3000, whats new?
    –Science constantly evolves as new evidence and facts come about that cause them to adapt and insert the new evidences and facts into working theories. And if science is NEVER conclusive, then E=MC2 shouldn’t work, and Hiroshima and Nagasaki were never hit by Atom bombs according to you. Our understanding of physics wouldn’t work, and we never sent probes out in space and landed them on other planets, as well as never have landed on the moon according to you. Your computer wouldn’t work, your TV wouldn’t work, cell phones wouldn’t work, and your car wouldn’t work if science was never conclusive. And most importantly, any scientific for your God is inconclusive. So congratulations, you just confirmed that there is no conclusive evidence through science for your God.
    –Also, according to you, time could exist infinitely past 3000 AD, and we would NEVER understand anything because it all gets proven wrong at some point.

    The Bible said that bleeding is not a way to heal, but 2000 years ago it was ’science’ that sick people must be bled by leeches. which means that 2000 years ago, Bible WAS against science!! But why did people still believe in it back then, hmm?
    –Bleeding with leaches as a way to heal is NOT science. It was a superstition or a ridiculous belief. In reality, it was science that proved that it DIDN’T heal.
    –Also, people believed the Earth was flat, too. It was science that proved it otherwise. –What was your point with this anyway?

  • 29. Luke  |  July 10, 2008 at 1:24 pm

    White says:
    anyway, God doesn’t need a body. He’s unimaginable

    -Please tell me how God functions without needing a body. Without a body, or some form of existence, then God is nothing, and we all know that nothing is non-existence, and we know that “nothing” is surely not intelligent. Keep moving that goalpost back and you can convince yourself of anything.
    How can we be made in Gods image in his likeness if we, as sentient beings, need a body? Without God needing a body, then there’s no image or likeness to be made after. Congratulations, you just contradicted the bible.

    (sorry for chopping up my posts, but I kept getting “discarded” after hitting the submit comment and had to post certain bits before I narrowed down the problem and had to edit it, lol)

  • 30. Anti-Devil  |  July 10, 2008 at 5:47 pm

    Luke…i got nothing to say if thats the case….u got to pick urself up and see for yourself..wat the truth really is..don step too low into just evidence…becuz even wat u see might not be true.

  • 31. Anti-Devil  |  July 14, 2008 at 7:32 pm

    Luke,god don’t need a body if he wants to create us in his image,that for god to decide..he kept the universe secret..What makes u think god need a body to create people in his image.and talking about image.God can appear in billions of images..Who knows? LUKEEE =DDD

  • 32. Anti-Devil  |  July 14, 2008 at 7:37 pm

    and luke..i really really wish one day u will come back to christianity..god is so great that he don’t need anyone of us..but he loved us and we all need him..consider somebody who really created the universe and created time who love u..if u belive in him u have eternal life..he will be with u forever..does that sounds great?is that wat u are looking for? don hesitate to open your heart and seek him with all your heart..and if u still cant find any reason to believe..then its all up to god to decide

  • 33. Luke  |  July 16, 2008 at 11:41 am

    don step too low into just evidence.. becuz even wat u see might not be true.
    –Lol. That’s a good one. That also goes to say that what you DON’T see might not be true.

    god don’t need a body if he wants to create us in his image,that for god to decide
    –If God doesn’t have a body, then what is he made out of? If we’re created in his image, and he doesn’t have a body, then why do we have a body? God supposedly appeared to people in the Bible such as Moses, so he must have a body, and he must be made out of something. What is this special “something” he is made out of, and where did it come from? If you say the universe needs a creator because something can not come from nothing, then what “something” did whatever God is made out of come from? How does this God without a body even function, let alone have these magical powers to create stuff out of nothing?

    he kept the universe secret
    –ROFL.. kept it a secret from who exactly?

    What makes u think god need a body to create people in his image
    –Because if we’re in his image, then he is a humanoid with arms, legs, torso, fingers, toes, a head and a brain. Anything else, and it’s a contradiction of the Bible. What makes you think God has no body in the first place? Keep moving that goalpost back.
    Even your Bible says he has a form and a body.

    God can appear in billions of images.
    –Bullshit. He doesn’t even appear in ONE image.

    u belive in him u have eternal life..he will be with u forever..does that sounds great?
    –And that is what suckers people into religion in the first place. Feel good delusional fairy tale fantasy with hopes of some kind of reward. Sure it sounds great on paper and in stories, but is it actually true? Every religion has their own version of Heaven. I would prefer the heaven with 72 virgins, that sounds great to me. Maybe I should become a Muslim and make myself a martyr.

  • 34. Anti-Devil  |  July 16, 2008 at 3:37 pm

    lol luke go ahead.go ahead and choose wat u wanna be..and go far in it..it will be a sucess Lol,atthe end it is the choice u make,who can change? lol u sound like u can use science to explain god,i really have to taek my hat off u..u seems to have a talent of suckering ppl’s thought to ur thoughts=Dand btw he kept the universe secret FROM U OF COURSe.asking the obvious..-_-

  • 35. smjkim  |  July 18, 2008 at 5:20 pm

    Luke, you have a very sound argument but I gotta say, if God doesn’t exist and if there is nothing beyond this life, you’re totally wasting your time trying to convince these Christians-in-vain. I happen to be one of those believers, and I believe in God and trying my best to have a meaningful relationship with the Greater Being because I feel that this current life should have a greater meaning than to just eat, sleep, and “live” a life. I find it easier to have a guidance with added benefits, and just from a purely practical point of view, it helps. But that’s me and it may not be for you.

    I have read into the authority of the Bible and I begin to feel that there is something greater in this book then what I have initially believed… but that’s probably my subjective opinion. If you haven’t found it, then you haven’t found it. Don’t waste your time trying to convince others, you have a life to live.

  • 36. Luke  |  July 18, 2008 at 10:44 pm

    Luke, you have a very sound argument…..
    –Do you have any counter arguments, then? Unless you do, then I’m not interested. I’m not here for people to psychoanalyze me. I will address some of your points here, though. 🙂

    you’re totally wasting your time trying to convince these Christians-in-vain
    –I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. I couldn’t care less what people believe. As I said in another proof to someone who made the same point, I am only here to promote critical thinking and to hear the counter arguments of others regarding the topics of my points. Also, why is this site here? Is it trying to convince people into Christianity? Then it’s a waste of time trying to convince atheists, and a waste of time trying to convert people of other religions to Christianity as well. The way I see it, this site is opening it’s doors to debate by debating with Marshal Brain’s site.

    I have read into the authority of the Bible and I begin to feel that there is something greater in this book then what I have initially believed
    –I’ve read the Bible, too, and after lots of research, I found it to be an amazing book of fiction no more “truthful” than any other religious text of any of the other religions on Earth.

  • 37. smjkim  |  July 19, 2008 at 3:52 pm

    Luke, I got no counter arguments, and I’m not smart or critical enough to psychoanalyze anybody’s point… it’s not like you’re going to prove Christians wrong and neither can they do the same for you. Reasoning may not work best against people who are supposed to have a little faith, which by definition is believing of the unseen. If that is the case, then your attempt to promote critical thinking is a waste of time indeed.

    By the way, I am a part-time magician. Not like Criss Angel or David Blaine, but I have my own philosophy in performing some sleight of hand for people. My thinking is that if our five senses can betray us, we shouldn’t entirely depend on what they tell us. This argument could work just as easily against people of faith too; the Bible could be a very elaborate hoax… but I tell ya, if it is, it’s a very good one because it has become the center of my life and my family’s life.
    You see an animal in a jungle, you see an animal, but I see a great design of God and I appreciate it in a different way than you do. Personal experience and interpretation of what one sees in his life may be more important than what you and I are doing on here.

    I love reading your posts, and I wish I could be just as enthusiastic in my Christian life as you are enthusiastic in promoting critical thinking. Anyway, I wish you the best.

  • 38. smjkim  |  July 19, 2008 at 4:24 pm

    Anoter thing, have you seen the movie “Shallow Hal”? If you haven’t seen it, then have you fallen in love with someone? Do any of your friends’ “objective” opinions really kick into your mind when you think the world of her?

    All I’m trying to say here is that your fact-based and objective arguments may not work against religious people if you haven’t experienced it yourself. What do you call that, phenomenological account? Can you criticize your friend’s loved one’s if you aren’t in a relationship with them? Of course you can, because you can see it in a third person perspective. If you put yourself in your friend’s shoes, will your criticism be as “hard-hitting”? Probably not.

    If I made any kind of sense, then you should know that promoting critical thinking in a site like this may work for fellow agnostics/atheists, but not for devoted believers.

    I’m not saying you’re wrong. I think you’re totally right based on pure logic and scientific way of thinking, but the only problem is that you and I don’t have much of a common ground to make a coherent dialogue.

    Christianity isn’t a religion like I used to think, because I’ve lived in Korea before and I have a better idea of what religion is. Christianity is a relationship. I know that sounds crazy to you, but I seriously can’t explain it any better if you haven’t experienced it yourself. I’m hoping you can at least understand that.

  • 39. Anti-Devil  |  July 19, 2008 at 6:19 pm

    yes i agree…christianity is a realationship..besides..it is the only relationship u will only find that will change life..i wanna thank all the christians here who stand strong in their faith and glorify god,God bless all of u abundantly,I believe one day we can impact others and let the lord save their souls..in this way..the world would be a more beautiful place..until when the second coming comes.

  • 40. Luke  |  July 20, 2008 at 4:54 pm

    smjkim says:
    and I’m not smart or critical enough to psychoanalyze anybody’s point…
    –My post of you psychoanalyzing me wasn’t about analyzing my points, but psychoanalyzing me (like a psychologist) in regards to my personal motives on why I debate here on this site. I’ll reiterate my motives to clarify; I am not here to prove Christianity wrong, as I have done so for myself. Whether you accept my own personal conclusions or not for yourself is irrelevant to me. I don’t care if anyone’s an atheist, Christian, agnostic, or even a devil worshiper, lol. I am simply here to hear other people’s responses to my points and conclusions in hopes that they can prove Christianity right, or at the very least plausible. Much like this site is here in an attempt to prove Christianity true by trying to prove Marshal Brain wrong by refuting his godisimaginary site. (And Cory, I’d love to debate with you some more. You’ve only ever responded to 1 of my posts, and that was a few months ago.)

    it’s not like you’re going to prove Christians wrong and neither can they do the same for you.
    –Unfortunately, the evidence against Christianity, as well as against all other religions, is incredibly unfavorable as to the legitimacy of all religions and all the gods invented by man. There’s a completely natural explanation of everything except the exact details of what natural forces may have created this universe, which is where the foundation of God and his existence boils down to. However, scientists have come up with some hypotheses for what may have naturally caused the big bang for this universe, and others. One such explanation is “String Theory,” which is very interesting to say the least.
    –And I’ve addressed the many fallacies that people have come up with to explain God before he supposedly created this universe, such as “he always existed, so he needs no creator” for example in Proof #36.

    Reasoning may not work best against people who are supposed to have a little faith, which by definition is believing of the unseen.
    –Unfortunately, this is true, and it is the biggest stumbling block used to promote willful ignorance for the need to evade critical thinking and evaluation of evidence. This was even an obstacle for me as I snapped out of the Christian delusion. However, I couldn’t ignore many of the illogical aspects of a God creating us, everything in the Bible, and what his whole point and purpose was for creating us in the first place before the “magical fruit” fiasco. Or how if he supposedly knows the future, why he still continues on with this charade with the knowledge of who’s going to heaven or hell, and much much more.

    By the way, I am a part-time magician. Not like Criss Angel or David Blaine, but I have my own philosophy in performing some sleight of hand for people. My thinking is that if our five senses can betray us, we shouldn’t entirely depend on what they tell us.
    –Hypnotists can do this as well by literally messing with brain functions and thought patterns, which is way more effective than “magicians” with sleight of hand. It’s even possible for subconscious self hypnosis, known also as the placebo effect. Mind over matter, as they say.

    This argument could work just as easily against people of faith too
    –Well, my hypnotist argument was a bit better because it gives a natural reason that explains such things like why people “feel” certain emotions that they attribute to God. (Like my Mom did when my Dad was in a horrible accident and was in critical condition with little chance of survival. She said she felt “calm” after hearing the news of the accident, and she said “God did it.” –Was it God that made her calm, or was it her just not over reacting? My Dad recovered just fine after a few months, by the way. 🙂 )
    –People also superstitiously contribute random occurrences to God by saying “This [insert event here] just CAN’T be a coincidence.” Now is every religion’s God doing all these little things for every person that contributes every little good thing as some sort of “sign” from their God, or is it all just coincidence in the first place? In a world without a God, then that answer is yes, everything is a coincidence that people just read into way too much. And I have never heard any good example of anything that just “CAN’T be a coincidence without divine intervention.” It’s just superstition in the way that it is a false conception of causation.

    the Bible could be a very elaborate hoax… but I tell ya, if it is, it’s a very good one because it has become the center of my life and my family’s life.
    –Yes, it does have a seemingly convincing cover story, but when critically analyzed, it has many illogical verses and aspects, and many stories with no historical accuracy or record. The main cast of Hebrew characters cannot be found anywhere in the historical record.

    You see an animal in a jungle, you see an animal, but I see a great design of God and I appreciate it in a different way than you do.
    –You see a great design by God, but I see a completely natural world which evolved without the need for a God to exist, but most important of all, a lack of evidence for the existence of any God, whether it’s the Christian God or otherwise.

    Personal experience and interpretation of what one sees in his life may be more important than what you and I are doing on here.
    –Personal experience and interpretation of such experiences doesn’t make anything true.

    I love reading your posts, and I wish I could be just as enthusiastic in my Christian life as you are enthusiastic in promoting critical thinking. Anyway, I wish you the best.
    –Thank you. I’ve also enjoyed reading and responding to your post. It is intelligently written, and has many intelligent points 🙂

    Anoter thing, have you seen the movie “Shallow Hal”? If you haven’t seen it, then have you fallen in love with someone? Do any of your friends’ “objective” opinions really kick into your mind when you think the world of her? All I’m trying to say here is that your fact-based and objective arguments may not work against religious people if you haven’t experienced it yourself. What do you call that, phenomenological account? Can you criticize your friend’s loved one’s if you aren’t in a relationship with them? Of course you can, because you can see it in a third person perspective. If you put yourself in your friend’s shoes, will your criticism be as “hard-hitting”? Probably not.
    –I see where you’re going with this, but it’s just a way of explaining relationship scenarios with people and applying it to God. Therefore, it has no real meaning or value to me in regards to being a good argument or reason for God’s existence.

    If I made any kind of sense, then you should know that promoting critical thinking in a site like this may work for fellow agnostics/atheists, but not for devoted believers.
    –Ouch.. The way this is worded almost implies that devoted believers aren’t capable of critical thinking. But I know what you meant though, lol. However, I didn’t mean by saying “I’m here to promote critical thinking” that I’m only here strictly to promote others to critically think AGAINST religion, but to think critically FOR it down to the last details in order to at least attempt to provide reasonable refutations to my points I make in my arguments. Whatever conclusions they come to that either may or may not sway them of their beliefs is unimportant to me in the long run. There’s two sides of the fence, and after personally been on both sides before finally being on the “atheist side,” I am now interested in hearing other people’s responses from the “religious side” of the fence in response to my own personal conclusions that prompted me to disbelieve a few years ago.

    I’m not saying you’re wrong. I think you’re totally right based on pure logic and scientific way of thinking,
    –Thanks. I don’t mean to toot my own horn here, but what does this say about the existence of a God, or any religion being the true one? It’s just a shame though that no one seems to be able to point out to me any good reason why God does, or even MIGHT exist based on pure logic, scientific evidence, or any other type of irrefutable proof.

    but the only problem is that you and I don’t have much of a common ground to make a coherent dialogue.
    –It doesn’t hurt to try 🙂

    Christianity isn’t a religion like I used to think, because I’ve lived in Korea before and I have a better idea of what religion is.
    –Ironic, because I have a good friend who lives in Korea that I grew up with and talk to regularly that is very religious, lol. So in this case, I don’t see what Korea has to do with understanding religion. (But I don’t understand why you ever left, lol. I’ve heard nothing but good things about it. 🙂 )

    Christianity is a relationship.
    –It’s more than that. It’s a strict set of rules in which to abide by in order to be rewarded in an afterlife in heaven, and punished if you disobey even the most minor of these rules by going to hell. Such things like “not eating pork,” or “not working on the sabbath day” among many other minor rules and guidelines.
    –And if Christianity is not a religion, but a “relationship,” then what are all other religions if not “relationships” with their own unique gods as well?

    I know that sounds crazy to you, but I seriously can’t explain it any better if you haven’t experienced it yourself. I’m hoping you can at least understand that.
    –I’ve heard crazier things, lol. There’s no need to explain Christianity any better than being a “relationship.” Christianity is a lot of things. I don’t want to hear “what it is and how it works,” I just want to hear why it’s supposedly true.

  • 41. smjkim  |  July 21, 2008 at 1:18 am

    Hey man, you aren’t alone in questioning how God knows the future, and whether it’s our doings that gets us into heaven/hell or whether it’s God that do that (predetermination). I’m also not fully satisfied with all the evil in this world. One small example, how God has pre-set judgments against homosexuals while science says that they were born that way. It is surely unfair to judge them if it was God that permitted them to be born that way, right?

    Maybe you’ve already done some research on Divine attributes and some you’ll find answers, but you won’t like all of them, because I sure don’t.

    One really interesting attribute about God is that if time is created by Him, then he should have no problem seeing the future since he’ll see the world in one timeless “dot”. But then again, I had problem with this view because if I pray to God for my health but God knows I’ll die from cancer at a young age, does that mean God hates me? I don’t know.

    Another thing that also bothers me is how God chooses whom he reaches out to: He says compassion to whom he has compassion etc… There is a pottery example (of that sort) where God is the one determining who gets saved or not. Is it fair? Absolutely not. But what am I to judge God? Whether he exists or not?

    I am pointing out just a few of “many” concerns that I have regarding my faith in Christianity just to show you that I’m not going into this blindly. Perhaps it’s my personal preference whether Christianity is true or not, because it gives me something to hold on to in my walk in life. Perhaps Christianity is really true and I just didn’t receive God’s grace to fully understand some of the questions that I really have which could help in this discussion with you. Maybe, I’ve interpreted too much into my personal coincidential experiences of “God” and felt that God really exists. Either case, I still think phenomenological account of religion is the best weapon of choice for you to fully appreciate and argue with religious people.

    As for your comment in how one’s interpretation and experience of one’s life not being necessarily true, I say it doesn’t matter what the truth of the world is as long as the person believes it is. The level of hard facts required to buy into that believe as true in the world will depend from individual to individual, and I’m sure you can appreciate that. I happen to be a lot more gullible in this aspect than you are, obviously. Some parts will require hard evidence (like the object falling down rather than up, and the sun rising from the east) others may not (I can’t guarantee that I won’t die tonight, but I’ll make plans for tomorrow and next month anyway).If I had the virtue of living my life fully with something I truly believe in, to make my life meaningful, I don’t think that the truth value of a particular religion or faith system I choose is irrelevant. I chose Christianity (although I would at other times claim that God chose me) you chose whatever you chose. I feel that my belief system appears to allow some loopholes (like the ones I’ve mentioned, as you would have also) yet my personal experience and interpretation of my experience (which favor Christianity as the way to go) seems to override those discrepencies (which favor Christianity as a delusion). I hope that makes sense; I stick with Christianity because either 1) I’m not critical enough to examine my faith so I stick with it for the sake of tradition 2) I feel drawn to it for some other reason that can’t be explained besides the account of personal experience, which can’t work in a dialogue between you and me.

    And I can’t give you any solid explanation as to why Christianity may be true. If I could, it wouldn’t be faith. Bible may not be fully supported with historical records, but many parts of it have been proven to be rather accurate. Just because there is no proof for all of it, it doesn’t mean it’s false… yet. Maybe someone will give me hard proof that Christianity is false, then sucks to be me because I’ll be really disappointed because I don’t think I’ll have the drive to live my life the way I do now.

    Once again, I’m terribly sorry to disappoint you with a lack of a hard response, because for me to explain my justification of Christianity is like me trying to explain to you the attributes of this great girlfriend and why I love her. The attributes by themselves don’t make my relationship with her great, it’s what I experience of her that determines the quality of my life being affected by it.

    I really don’t think anyone will be able to come up to you with what you’re looking for. But I find it great that you know what you’re looking for. Keep it up!

  • 42. smjkim  |  July 21, 2008 at 1:22 am

    Pardon my awkward grammar… the truth value of a belief system is IRRELEVANT (the “I don’t think” nullifies it, that’s not what I meant:)

  • 43. smjkim  |  July 21, 2008 at 1:44 am

    Continuing with the “relationship” argument… you can easily counter this and say that all of my relationship with God is delusional, despite my relationship with a non-existent God being great as it can be. So we have a couple of different scenarios
    1) God really exists, and I do my best to maintain my relationship with God
    2) I’m delusional, and I’m just having a strange mental-state-relationship with myself
    3) I’m totally lying to you about this relationship thing, just to see what your responses would be as a fellow non-believer
    4) I’m delusional with the devil, who believes in God if the devil exists, which means it’s still a bad news for me.

    Even from a purely practical point of view as Pascal would say, I get the greatest payoff with choice #1. If there is even a small fraction of a chance that #1 it may be true, I am forced to play this option, or at least try… Plus, I’ve already determined in my faith that the “loss” from living a “Christian life” while Christianity not being true is already insignificant, as long as it gives me a purpose in my life.
    … I suppose this is one way I would justify my faith. Still, this isn’t the answer you’re looking for.

    How do we find the common ground when one of us is looking for concrete examples and explanations for all the discrepencies while the other is willing to let things pass by and is just willing to “take it in”? I think I’m more than willing to leave Christianity if I was given a hard-credible evidence that Christianity is a hoax, because if I don’t , that would be stupid. But on the other hand, I’m on the rut to convince non-believers to believe in God because Christianity or any religion may not occur without that element of faith. I hope I’ve clarified, or at least pointed out the “common ground” problem. Without accounting for personal experience, one cannot properly discret another person’s faith, and another person’s faith does not have necessary objective grounds to convince non-believers of the validity of their faith.

    God sure made it tough, eh? 😉

  • 44. Anti-Devil  |  July 23, 2008 at 5:57 am

    yea,Its gonna be hard..very hard,the gate to heaven is narrow…so is the road to heaven

  • 45. Luke  |  July 26, 2008 at 11:01 pm

    smjkim says:
    Hey man, you aren’t alone in questioning how God knows the future, and whether it’s our doings that gets us into heaven/hell or whether it’s God that do that (predetermination).
    –As I’ve said in various proofs scattered throughout this site, everything is pointless if God does know the future. He knew that as soon as he created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden along with the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then he knew the Devil would tempt her in the first place, and he knew she would eat of it, and he knew what would happen with the world with his “punishment” after they ate of the tree. Why did God create the tree in the first place? It was completely unneccessary. God also knew what Satan was going to do as soon as he created him way before he supposedly became the “bad guy” in the story. God also knew he would eventually regret making humans because of their wickedness and flood them all except Noah and his son’s families. And God also knew that man would eventually become “evil” again and just start the cycle all over again and send Jesus.
    –Would you play the lottery every day if you knew you were going to lose every day? In other words, if you were God, would you create dirty, sinful, and wicked humans if you knew how every person is going to act whether good or bad, and where each one goes after they die in some sort of life you designed as a “heaven/hell” test? None of it makes any logical sense on God’s part, and therefore life nor anything God ever does has no point if he knows just how everything he does is going to turn out anyway.

    I’m also not fully satisfied with all the evil in this world.
    –Who is satisfied with evil? Unfortunately though, this cannot be helped. Every man will do what they want, and no one can stop everything. Even in heaven, Satan supposedly turned “evil” while still in heaven and waged a war. Why does God kill us when we “sin,” but he doesn’t kill Satan when he sins? How do you even fight a war in heaven, anyway? Are there weapons like sophisticated guns, lasers, bombs, and tanks? lol. Did they use swords shields, armor, or other crude weapons like medieval knights? Or do they use lightning bolts shot forth from their fingers? Evil can exist where ever there is free will and free thought and conflicting opinions or objectives.
    –Anyway, the Bible says evil is “anything you do, or even anything you don’t do that God doesn’t like,” which basically says that evil is anything against God. Like working on the sabbath for instance, which I find one of the most absurd “laws” in the Bible. But on the other hand, people generally consider evil as just an abstract term that just sums Evil up as “anything that causes pernicious harm or discomfort to others.”

    One small example, how God has preset judgments against homosexuals while science says that they were born that way. It is surely unfair to judge them if it was God that permitted them to be born that way, right?
    –Yes, this is true to a certain degree. Some people have always been attracted to people of the same gender since a young age, while others may have just “experimented” and then decided for themselves to live that particular lifestyle. However, most people will argue that homosexuals ultimately have the choice in their partners and lifestyles, and they are right in that argument. But the worst part about these individual desires is that God “outlawed” them, and it is unfair that people have to fight within themselves causing stress, guilt and unhappiness in their lives by being forced into believing that they cannot be who they want to be in order to please this jealous, petty, unjust, unforgiving, vindictive, bloodthirsty, homophobic control-freak just because the Bible says this God doesn’t like something. Then you have these fundamental Christians who go gay-bashing just because the stupid Bible is against such a mundane subject of absolutely no consequence to humanity as a whole just because God says in the Bible “I don’t like homosexuals and they should be put to death.”

    One really interesting attribute about God is that if time is created by Him, then he should have no problem seeing the future since he’ll see the world in one timeless “dot”.
    –That’s an interesting way to look at it. However, this also says that God knows the infinite future of both everything he has created, will create, and will do himself in his eternal future, which means that even God’s future is predetermined. How can God know what he’s going to do in a trillion years from now just by looking in the infinite future before he even mentally thinks about doing something in the first place? That is actually impossible. And it even applies to us. If we have free will, then there is no determined future. At best, even if there is a future to look in to based on where we are now in time and what everyone is thinking or “planning,” then it is always subject to change, because plans can always change. There are an infinite number of things 6 billion people can do throughout their every day lives all at the same time, and one random, spur of the moment action can change the future of any one of these 6 billion people at any given time which ultimately changes the future of Earth and Humanity. For example, I’ve never ever contemplated suicide in my life. After posting this comment, I just suddenly decide to hang myself for no reason other than “the hell of it.” Now one year ago, would God know I would hang myself 364 days, 23 hrs and 55 minutes before the thought even crossed my mind? Even if I was contemplating suicide for the last 3 months, how would he actually know I would ever carry through with it, and how would he know which date? Then, after I die, the future of all the people I will have met in my life will be altered. I could save a life one day, or talk someone out of doing something stupid that will affect the rest of their life. Or maybe just by knowing me and making plans to go somewhere one day could prevent someone from being in a harmful situation to begin with. For example, next year I meet someone, and we decide to go to a movie or something. While we’re at the mall, their house gets broken into. If that person was at their house at the time, the burglar could have had a gun, and would have shot and killed my friend if he was at his house. By knowing me, I inadvertantly saved his life because that person was out with me at the time. Another example would be if I was planning to go to college while still in high school, then I would be planning my own future. It’s a vague future, but maybe God can “look into it” just based on my plans alone. But how would he know all the details down to how many times I blink in one day 3 years in to the future? Now in this future where I imagine myself going to college and constantly working hard to get good grades, graduate, and get a job in a career I wanted. But how is it possible to determine if I will drop out, get horrible grades, get expelled or thrown out, or even get a job in a career I majored in before I even apply or get accepted to a college? Thousands or more things could happen in the 4 years in college that could result in any number of possibilities. I could think of dozens examples like those. How does God know everything if we have free will, and things can change at any time? The future is NOT set, and can be changed at any moment. Unless of course we DON’T have free will.
    –Now, in a world with no predetermined future, the Bible in it’s current form is completely coincidental. Unless he violated the free will of those who discovered the ancient scrolls in clay jars inside ancient caves to make those people find them. Also, these scrolls don’t have to contain one ounce of truth. The individual authors of each of the writings can write whatever they want whether a little factual, completely wrong, or just outright lies to glorify themselves, their culture, or their God. Without a predetermined future, God cannot give people prophecies, unless he forces prophecies to come true, which violates free will if any human interaction is involved. Much like he did when he hardened the heart of the Pharaoh the many times he did in the Moses story. If God doesn’t know the future, then ANY type of plan he makes is never guaranteed to come in to effect. There’s almost no point in planning anything if these “plans” for any and every individual person never come to fruition in the first place. If it’s some kind of multi-step plan, then the probability of each of the steps leading to the planned outcome of these multiple steps becomes less and less probable. There are plenty more examples I can give if need be.

    But then again, I had problem with this view because if I pray to God for my health but God knows I’ll die from cancer at a young age, does that mean God hates me? I don’t know.
    –There are many problems with that view as I just pointed out in the above paragraphs. But look at it this way: One thousand years ago, did God even know you would be born at all, let alone get cancer at a young age?

    Another thing that also bothers me is how God chooses whom he reaches out to: He says compassion to whom he has compassion etc… There is a pottery example (of that sort) where God is the one determining who gets saved or not. Is it fair? Absolutely not.
    –Yeah, that’s a loving God for ya.

    But what am I to judge God? Whether he exists or not?
    –You are who you are. You can judge whatever or whoever you want. We all can, and there are no consequences or “laws” against it to fear. Just remember, by choosing one god over the thousands of other gods invented by men, you are judging each one of those other Gods and determining that they don’t exist.

    I am pointing out just a few of “many” concerns that I have regarding my faith in Christianity just to show you that I’m not going into this blindly.
    –You don’t have to show me anything 🙂 But it is good to think and evaluate any belief structure before committing yourself to something you have to change your way of life for, especially religious dogmas and practices. There is a lot of emotional baggage I am personally free of that comes with any religion such as guilt, fear of punishment, and stress that eats at me if I “disobey” or sin against a certain God by doing something mundane that he doesn’t like according to some book. But that’s just me.

    Perhaps Christianity is really true and I just didn’t receive God’s grace to fully understand some of the questions that I really have which could help in this discussion with you.
    –Perhaps any other religion is true. What makes the Christian God more appealing than any of the other Gods? Is it the Bible and all of it’s many stories contained within written by men, discovered in caves, edited for apocryphal content, then put together? What if no religions are true, but there is some kind of God that has some kind of different purpose for our existence or our souls that are entirely different than any of these religions and their texts lead us on to believe? Christianity has it’s holes and fallacies just like every other religion.

    I still think phenomenological account of religion is the best weapon of choice for you to fully appreciate and argue with religious people.
    –Which specific religion, and which God? Everyone has “experienced” their own God in their own ways. This neither proves a God, nor which God is the “right” God to worship.

    As for your comment in how one’s interpretation and experience of one’s life not being necessarily true, I say it doesn’t matter what the truth of the world is as long as the person believes it is.
    –It does matter, and it does impact the world. Religion can be considered a plague, and is responsible for some of the most terrible and horrific atrocities known throughout history. Take terrorists, the crusades, the inquisition, and all the other wars and murders caused by conflicting religious beliefs. Religion does 3 things quite effectively; Controls people, divides people, and deludes people.
    –I will say that I do agree to a certain degree that it almost doesn’t matter what any one person believes in. What is, just simply is, and no belief is going to change what is. I’m just trying to figure out what ISN’T. The problem I do have with this is when people go around shoving their beliefs in your face by saying “Believe this, or else you’ll go to a hell where you get punished and tortured in an after-life,” or when people kill eachother because they don’t believe in the same belief system.
    –“If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.” -Albert Einstein

    I chose Christianity (although I would at other times claim that God chose me)
    –You have to be careful with statements like that. How did God “choose” you? Was it your parents who exposed you to Christianity, a friend, or someone going door to door? Genetic Fallacy is the term used for “whatever parents or country you were born into, you are most likely to believe what they believe.” If you claim that a friend, or someone going door to door was responsible for your conversion and that it was God that did it, then it violates their free will because God made them go to you. Otherwise, it’s just a coincidence you were exposed, like it always is in the first place. Or was it just a natural curiosity that prompted you to belief and to read the bible? That would just be you choosing your God, not a God choosing you. And why would God choose you, but not choose any other atheist or someone else of another religion?

    I feel drawn to it for some other reason that can’t be explained besides the account of personal experience, which can’t work in a dialogue between you and me.
    –Sure it can. Give me some examples of these personal experiences that have happened for you. I can’t imagine why if a God is true, that any and all of everyone’s personal experiences are so vague, yet at the same time so miraculous to just the person who experienced them, but can’t be used to help explain or prove to other people why the God they believe in actually truly exists. However, one problem still exists with that, and that is that EVERYONE of every religion has made these same claims for their God and religion. But to Christians, all other personal experiences people have for all the other Gods are obviously false because Christians are biased to their own religion and have determined that all other Gods don’t exist.
    –You have to think outside the “Christian Box,” and apply all claims to all the other religions as well. When you understand why you dismiss all other Gods, you’ll understand why I dismiss yours.

    And I can’t give you any solid explanation as to why Christianity may be true. If I could, it wouldn’t be faith.
    –Faith is just a convenient excuse to believe and explain away the lack of evidence for all Gods, which is why it is so effective at deluding people. When lack of evidence is pointed out, faith is the biggest crutch used to lean on. It’s really a brilliant ploy used to attract believers and keep them.

    Bible may not be fully supported with historical records, but many parts of it have been proven to be rather accurate.
    –Like what? Just because it mentions Egypt, or maybe a couple people by name that are in historical records, doen’t mean God exists or that the rest of the events or stories that are NOT in historical records from the Bible is true. Other religious writings are historically accurate in a few cases, but does that mean that their God exists?

    Just because there is no proof for all of it, it doesn’t mean it’s false… yet.
    –Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. In other words, when there is no proof of something at all, then it’s not true. Some people say that atheists think that the Bible and the existence of God is “guilty until proven innocent,” and that it’s not “fair” or the reason for their lack of belief. But in the same token, we take the stand that nature is “innocent until proven guilty,” and religious people think nature is “guilty until proven innocent.” So basically, there’s two sides to the fence here. What people choose to believe based on their faith contrary to physical evidence, or lack of evidence thereof usually means that it is not true.

    Even from a purely practical point of view as Pascal would say, I get the greatest payoff with choice #1. If there is even a small fraction of a chance that #1 it may be true, I am forced to play this option, or at least try.
    –This is another big crutch used to attract followers to a religion and keep them. Pascal’s argument can be boiled down to basically “Believe this, OR ELSE BURN IN HELL!!” Or with what you just said here, “When doubts arise, just keep believing this religion and do what this God tells you just in case there is a heaven or some other reward in an afterlife to win.”

    Plus, I’ve already determined in my faith that the “loss” from living a “Christian life” while Christianity not being true is already insignificant, as long as it gives me a purpose in my life. I suppose this is one way I would justify my faith.
    –Well, whatever floats your boat and gives you your own purpose in life. My purpose in life is to live life to it’s fullest without guilt after “sinning,” fear of punishment from supernatural forces in this life or “the next,” or wasting time on religious dogmas and practices. I am personally free from all the emotional baggage that comes with religion.

    God sure made it tough, eh?
    –Therein lies the problem.

    • 46. JDSTATS  |  May 7, 2009 at 3:23 pm

      You think that religion causes atrocities, but fail to acknowledge that the lack of religion causes more atrocities. Lenin and Hitler were certainly not theists. The holy wars were caused by the leadership of differing factions, they just used religion to get the people to rally behind them. This is true of most all atrocities associated with religion. The Islamic extremists of today are nothing more than poor peole brainwashed by the rich to believe something not supported by the Koran. All these show that people are willing to misuse and misrepresent even the most noblest of ideas. The idea of charity certainly does not make sense from any evolutionist standpoint, unless you are globally minded, which most people are not. I agree with Einstein, one should do the right thing, not for fear of punishment, but because it is the right thing to do. That, however, is not how most people work. I cannot say that God didn’t purposely place in the Bible the prospect of punishmetn, not because he intended to punish them forever, but because he understood the psyche of most of mankind. Many would never even start on the road to enlightenment if not for fear of punishment.
      You seem to be judging the Bible and christianity incorrectly. The entirety of Jesus’ message boiled down to love the lord with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus’ story of sacrificing himself for those that would curse and torture him is incomparable. Do you think that there can be a more noble endeavor than to practice love so fervently that you are willing to sacrifice yourself for your enemies?
      I don’t know and certainly can’t prove that everything written in the Bible is true, but I do know that following Jesus’ example of love is truly the best way to live. Your calling it the “stupid bible” is denying all the truth that is written in it.
      While no one can not prove that their beliefs are correct, I would say that believing in Jesus’ example of love is good and true and noble and something worth beleiving in even to the point of suffering a painful death. Can you say atheism gives anything but a sense of self-satisfaction and “no guilt”?

  • 47. Gordon  |  November 15, 2008 at 5:30 am

    When I read the statement: Think About Science, it is hard to view it from a rational perspective. Is it wrong to say that science is merely man’s understanding of God’s own works? (i.e. “God created evolution”) What we wind up having is different people, with different beliefs, all asking the same ontological questions. Yet, when it comes to some theories of science, finding the answers are better left to philosophers – and rightly so, for some of it requires abstract instead of analytical thought.

    I proudly serve our nation in the United States Navy, and we have a saying that simply goes: “just push the believe button” – due to the highly intricate and complex equipment we operate with, we prefer to simply know WHAT it does, not HOW it does it. I think similarily, science seeks to answer the HOW, spirituality seeks to answer the WHY. Faith is pushing the “believe button”.

    But to flip the script: Think About Religion
    All over the world, from the beginning of recorded time, we have (literally) concrete evidence proving, and showing man’s insatiable need for religion. What then, would this lead us to believe?

    For me, I can draw a couple conclusions: Either as a created being or a product of evolution, man wants to know God, if he didnt, then there wouldn’t be any need for religion in the first place, and in turn – no religion. But, since religion has obviously existed, it’s hard to refute that statement.

    Two, on a side note, I think we have drastically underestimated the intelligence of our ancient, and not-so ancient ancestors. One could say they used religion to explain what science has been discovering. I think this is partly naive because the Egyptians and Romans were highly advanced civilizations in terms of technology for their times – so I think it’s safe to say they had a good grasp on science back then, albeit a small one, but good. Yet those cultures still held onto their religions as well.

    So from there, we can assert that 1) Man wants to know God, and 2) Our intelligence should lead to a better understanding of the natural sciences. To reverse the statements using if A=B, then B=A logic, one could say: God wants to know man, and nature should help us see an intelligence behind it (certainly not our own).

    A friend of mine, who claims no religion, said he merely believes in God because “it all had to start somewhere, by something”. And, I think this is a beautiful point, because it goes back to science figuring out the HOW, and spirituality figuring out the WHY.

    My question (and answer to “Think About Science”) is: why cant we have both? Why cant I believe in God to know WHY I exist, and Science to know HOW?

  • 48. martini  |  March 28, 2009 at 7:09 am

    Hey I was thinking, doesn’t God make an atheistic assumption about the possible existance of gods greater than himself?

    For example, suppose there are greater gods existing beyond gods awareness, keeping themselves hidden from him for some mysterious reason which, of course, is beyond god’s ability to understand. Even an “all-knowing” being, like god, cannot disprove the existance of greater gods.

    But in the bible, god clearly states that he is the ultimate being, the one true god, the alpha and the omega, and that there is nothing above him. This however, is an atheistic assumption, since greater gods are, by their nature, impossible to disprove.

    Subsequently, god can also NOT suggest with any certainty that he is the absolute moral authority; that he defines absolutely what is “good” or “evil” or “perfect”. For example, some greater god may have a differing opinion of what is good or evil. Perhaps some other god has orchestrated a different universe, which is greater and more successful than ours by some divine measure. It is not very hard at all to imagine such a place; and I’m just a measly human.

    • 49. Cory Tucholski  |  March 28, 2009 at 9:55 am

      This argument falls absolutely flat. God is all-knowing, which means he knows everything that there is to know. If there were other, greater deities out there, he would know about them. Otherwise, God is not all-knowing. It’s as simple as that.

  • 50. JDSTATS  |  May 5, 2009 at 6:18 pm

    None of our greatest cities match the complexity of the cell.
    Our greatest engineers and scientists cannot recreate the intracacy of the eye.
    The greatest most talented artist cannot match the beauty seen in a simple flower.
    Everything in existence screams design and defies random chance.
    You may be right that the burden of proof lies with God, but God has more than adequately met this burden.
    Your willfully ignoring the proof, does not make it go away.
    Your supposition that scientists can explain how everything occurs, when they clearly cannot and have not does not solve the problem. You know science would not even attempt to answer the whys as it can’t even answer the hows.
    Science is a limited, scope-reduced search for truth. It is not the answer. In fact it only answers very limited unimportant questions. It does not even answer how one lives let alone how one should live.

  • 51. Brooke Parham  |  December 4, 2009 at 2:27 am

    I cannot help but read all of these comments without stating this:

    I do not think that those of you who doubt in God, or do not believe in His existance, have the authority to contradict God, or question Him.
    Obviously you do not know much about Him personally, and therfor cannot come to the conclusion of the way God works. He works in ways that you will EVER be able to COMPREHEND, UNDESTAND or EXPLAIN. That’s just God.
    We will never know how His mysterious ways work until we reach Heaven.
    So those of you contradicting, I suggest you give God a “try”. You have nothing to loose by it right? Only to experince the most intimate and important relationship in your life. Dont believe me? Try it yourself.


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