Proof #9: Understand Ambiguity

December 14, 2007 at 1:49 am 14 comments

Marshall Brain asks us to imagine that we have cancer and that we pray to God to heal us.  If we go into remission, he then asks us whether God healed us or if it was the chemotherapy.

I can see where this is going.

There is not way to tell beyond a reasonable doubt that God did the healing since we have chemotherapy involved.  Brain, however, fails to understand the concept of delegation.

Answered prayer need not be God reaching His hand down and becoming involved in every tiny detail.  He can delegate some of these healing miracles to other agents, such as chemotherapy.  Brain has failed to account for God being the Prime Mover in that situation, with chemotherapy acting as a secondary mover–God’s agent, if you will.

This is the reason that I gave my oncologist a retirement card with a small note from me on behalf of my (Christian) family thanking him for saving my life.  God is the Prime Mover, with my doctor acting as His agent.  Simple delegation.  It doesn’t make my oncologist any less deserving of my gratitude.

I’ve said all I need to say on prayer right here.  This proof is nothing more than a rehash of the first proof.

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Entry filed under: Prayer.

Proof #8: Think About Near-Death Experiences Proof #10: Watch the Offering Plate

14 Comments

  • 1. Samuel Skinner  |  February 1, 2008 at 7:01 am

    So god is responsible for everything? I sense determinism- means people are robots. Not bad, but it means that we simply are hand puppets. Also means when people commit evil it is fore ordained. Basically this proof just tossed free will out the window. Unless you want to try double think.

  • 2. Luke  |  June 14, 2008 at 5:16 am

    Answered prayer need not be God reaching His hand down and becoming involved in every tiny detail. He can delegate some of these healing miracles to other agents, such as chemotherapy.
    –This refutation is ridiculous. All I see here with this proposed delegation is “God works in mysterious ways” babble. Chemotherapy was created by men, and when it works, then it is doing what it was intended for. People’s bodies and the cancer they have react to Chemo differently than others for better or worse. And if your body reacts well to chemo, and you prayed, but it wasn’t “God’s will” to come and assist with the healing, then it was just the Chemo that did it’s job. This same principle goes for just about any other examples of “miracles” one can think of. The bottom line is that it’s all a coincidence. Supposed miracles happen all the time coincidentally without people praying or God just randomly popping in and doing the miracles. So when you take away God from the equation, nothing on Earth changes at all. Everything happens naturally with no prayer necessary or even involved.

  • 3. White  |  July 1, 2008 at 3:16 pm

    Chemo is thought by man, yes. But who placed that thought into man’s brain?? ‘Everything happens naturally’ ok so how did such a finely tuned solar system came about ‘naturally’? By chance? Well that’s what you’re saying. ‘Evolution’ sounds tempting. But its still chance. RANDOM, UNGUIDED chance. I dunno how’s that gonna lead to life. Its like spontaneous generation. Its ‘natural’ too. Maggots just ‘came about on rotting meat naturally.’ Well it used to be science too. And it sounds surprisingly like evolution….

  • 4. Luke  |  July 7, 2008 at 2:16 pm

    White Says:
    Chemo is thought by man, yes. But who placed that thought into man’s brain??
    –According to what you seem to be pointing out here, some invisible man imposes on the free will and free thinking of people and places thoughts into their head. Well who placed the thought in God’s head to create a body capable of forming cancer in the first place?
    –Anyway, Chemotherapy wasn’t miraculously and suddenly invented all at once. Time, research, studies, and experiments went in to developing and testing the radiation used to destroy the cancer cells.

    ‘Everything happens naturally’ ok so how did such a finely tuned solar system came about ‘naturally’? By chance?
    –How did God come about “naturally” and “by chance?”

    Well that’s what you’re saying. ‘Evolution’ sounds tempting. But its still chance. RANDOM, UNGUIDED chance. I dunno how’s that gonna lead to life. Its like spontaneous generation. Its ‘natural’ too.
    –Evolution is NOT abiogenesis (the origin of life). I’m not here to play teacher, so do your own research on the subjects. But I will say that the “Theory” of evolution is not a “theory” of conjecture or opinion. You need to learn about the scientific method and scientific theories. Like the Theory of Relativity, the Theory of Gravity among others. A “scientific theory” is putting all the facts and evidence together to form the “big picture” if you will. Of all the scientists who actually study and work in the field of evolution, there is absolutely no debate between them on whether it’s true or not. Evolution is a fact, not a theory of opinion or conjecture. Just don’t pick and choose little tiny fights in evolution without learning everything else about it. If you do enough research on creationists, you’ll see that they do absolutely none of their own science. They pick and choose their little “fights” by arguing against one small aspect of a study, and completely ignoring and disregarding everything else.

  • 5. White  |  July 8, 2008 at 5:42 am

    Well we obviously got our info from different sources -.-

    -i never said chemo came suddenly!

    -God exists out of time and space. He’s unimaginable. well thats what He says ^^ Same cannot be said of evoultion.

    -Not true lah…. one thing i AM sure, is that creationists DO know their science -.- and isn’t spontaneous generation FACT once, too? 😛 Besides, like you said, i can also say i don’t believe evolution, becos i didnt SEE it 😛 replace evolution with God, same thing isnt it.

  • 6. luke  |  July 8, 2008 at 1:47 pm

    God exists out of time and space. He’s unimaginable. well thats what He says ^^ Same cannot be said of evoultion.
    —Like I haven’t heard that before. I’ve addressed this in proof#36 here. Anyway, before he created this “space” we call the universe, where did he, or where DOES he exist? And what the hell do you even mean by “Same cannot be said about evolution” in the context of your line above? lol

    Not true lah…. one thing i AM sure, is that creationists DO know their science
    –But apparently, according to you, evolutionary scientists don’t know their own field of study and science, heh. Which leads on to say that astronomers don’t know their own field of science when they say the Universe is 13 billion years old or more based on the real observable evidence we call light. Or Geologists who say the earth is about 4.5 billion years old based on rock formations and radiometric rock dating don’t know their science, either. So according to you, any science that comes along that conflicts with creationist beliefs is wrong, but creationists are right when they disagree with any of the science they learn from the real scientists who actually do all the hard work. You can’t go around picking and choosing which scientists are right when it’s something you agree with, but then saying other scientists are wrong when something comes along with something you disagree with. It doesn’t work that way. You apparently don’t know how the scientific method works, and about peer review. Scientists are their own worst enemies. When someone in a field of science proposes evidence, a hypotheses, or theories, other scientists test and retest these things to make sure everything is conclusive and fits together in one “big picture,” if you will.
    So like I said. Creationists don’t do their own science, they learn from what the real scientists in the field bring to them, but when something comes along that contradicts a creationist’s beliefs, then they pick and choose little tidbits of whatever they disagree with to try and “disprove” it while ignoring everything else.

    Besides, like you said, i can also say i don’t believe evolution, becos i didnt SEE it
    —Look around you. Evolution is everywhere. It’s why there’s so many species of Dogs, cats, humans, plant life and more. Everything has a common ancestor where changes constantly happen from generation to generation.
    –And as far as “macro-evolution” goes, you can’t walk a mile by taking one step. For example, all dogs have a common ancestor from wolves. You won’t see a chihuahua born from a wolf, because it takes many generations of breeding.
    –If you believe that the flood really happened, and that we’re all ancestor’s of Noah and his children, then how do you explain all the different skin colors and racial traits of humans? These genetic differences are literally evolution. So like I said: Look around, and you’ll see evolution everywhere.

  • 7. Anti-Devil  |  July 13, 2008 at 4:55 pm

    U don believe god exist? look at all the miracles that are unexplainable..NO way can coincidence take this.healing prayer and stuff? that explains that god didnt give u 100 percent evidence….he only gave u maybe 90 and 10 percent he take it away..for u to fill it with faith..jump over it or u will not believe in god=D

  • 8. luke  |  July 14, 2008 at 8:15 am

    U don believe god exist? look at all the miracles that are unexplainable..NO way can coincidence take this.healing prayer and stuff?
    –Just what “miracles” are unexplainable? Everything is explainable once you learn the actual causes. Just because we don’t have an answer for something at any given time, doesn’t mean it isn’t there waiting to be discovered. For everyone who says “God did it” without giving it a second thought, there’s someone else who actually feels the need to understand reality that says “Let me find out REALLY happened.” If the world was like you, we wouldn’t feel the need for science and the understanding of nature. We would all just say “God did it” without giving anything a second thought or researching anything to understand it and we’d all be stuck in the stone age.

    that explains that god didnt give u 100 percent evidence….he only gave u maybe 90 and 10 percent he take it away..for u to fill it with faith..jump over it or u will not believe in god=D
    –God hasn’t given any evidence. Just everyday events that ignorant simple minded fools take as seemingly supernatural miraculous coincidences.
    –And faith is a cheap way of saying “believe in the invisible.” Suppose I have faith in a God. Now which God of the thousands of them ever invented throughout human history do I choose from to worship? Or do I choose the one that you think seems to have the most seemingly convincing cover story?

  • 9. Anti-Devil  |  July 14, 2008 at 7:47 pm

    haha..u seriously failed at reasoning..like i said science is limited..it cannot prove everything DUDE..listen dude..things that are far too unexplained and impossible by science alot..that is called miracle..u tkae everything for science?u’ll a poor thing,u live under the law of science..u take everything so hard up?then if everyone was like u..wat hope can the world have?

  • 10. Luke  |  July 16, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    haha..u seriously failed at reasoning
    –How so? It’s YOU that fails at reasoning. You just go off in wild tangents everywhere that strays so far off topic that it just becomes crazy talk with no real meaning or value that shows no sign of reasoning on your part at all.
    –The rest of your nonsensical post is just more reiteration from your other post which I already replied to above.

    –SO PLEASE, FOR THE LAST TIME: IF YOU WANT TO DEBATE ME, THEN PLEASE REFUTE EACH OF, OR MOST OF MY MOST CRITICAL POINTS RATHER THAN VAGUE, OFF TOPIC RANTS WITH NO REAL POINT OR MEANING.
    –Do you see how I do it? I copy and paste each of your points, then type in my reply underneath it in a structured and organized fashion. By doing so, I cover all your points you try to make. Any more of your nonsense and crazy talk, and I won’t even bother responding to you anymore. I’ll wait until someone actually has something intelligent to write.

  • 11. Anti-Devil  |  July 19, 2008 at 5:40 pm

    LOL ur really true,i will have something intelligent to write to u when u have somethign intelligent to respond=D

  • 12. Anti-Devil  |  July 28, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    besides why would i want to follow your ways,i create my own way..i am creative..=D Unique..and i don’t follow things blindly=D

  • 13. Bright Morning Star  |  August 5, 2008 at 6:54 pm

    Where do we find the 7 angels that rid us of the 7 devils? These devils are rageing against men women and children! I know who they are I know what they are doing! I feel their rath! They rage upon us that are the true children of Jesus and the Virgin Mary! I am suppose to revive Jesus and Mary’s first born decendent the son of David the Warrior. The devils are blinding him, how do I the first born daughter’s decendent find the angels to give the devils their plague? I am thy young son’s bride, we were pledge to eachother when I turned 15. Help!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • 14. Luke  |  August 8, 2008 at 3:28 am

    Where do we find the 7 angels that rid us of the 7 devils?
    –Nowhere. Angels and devils do not exist. Are you looking for an address or phone number? lol.

    They rage upon us that are the true children of Jesus and the Virgin Mary!
    –The “virgin” Mary is completely unimportant and irrelevant. Nobody is “her true child.”

    I am suppose to revive Jesus and Mary’s first born decendent the son of David the Warrior.
    –Wow. I’m at a loss for words on this. The delusion is strong with this one.
    –How are YOU supposed to revive anyone anyway? Is it some kind of magical incantation God is supposed to have created?

    how do I the first born daughter’s decendent find the angels to give the devils their plague?
    –You can’t because “the devils” don’t exist. And what the hell are you talking about by “their plague?”

    I am thy young son’s bride, we were pledge to eachother when I turned 15. Help!
    –It sounds like you were pledged to some kind of crazy cult. The only help for you is professional therapy.


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