Proof #47: Contemplate Creation

May 27, 2008 at 2:41 am 8 comments

The crux of this argument is “Who created the Creator?”

The advantage of the first option [that there is no creator of the universe] is that it is self-contained. The complexity arose spontaneously. No other explanation is required.

The problem with the second option is that it immediately creates an impossibility. If complexity cannot arise without intelligence, then we immediately must ask, “Who created the intelligent creator?” The creator could not spring into existence if complexity requires intelligence. Therefore, God is impossible.

As I’ve already explained elsewhere, God is eternally self-existent.  There was never a time when He didn’t exist, and so therefore no creator is required.  God is a necessary being, the universe and everything in it is merely contingent to God’s existence.

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Entry filed under: God.

Proof 46: Ponder Pascal’s Wager Proof #48: Compare Prayer to a Lucky Horseshoe

8 Comments

  • 1. Luke  |  June 16, 2008 at 6:45 am

    There was never a time when He didn’t exist, and so therefore no creator is required.
    –I’ve addressed this ridiculous “god always existed” hypothesis elsewhere, but I’ll throw in another take on the subject so I don’t have to copy and paste, heh.

    –if God ALWAYS existed and can do whatever he wants, then what has he been doing in his infinite past? What was his reason for creating the Universe and the earth with two dumbed-down people and a tree with magical “fruit of knowledge” in the first place? What was the point so far? Where was he going with this idea and what was in it for him? Why is he focusing all his attention here on this world of “sinners.” And why did he create such a vastly beautiful universe that is apparently nothing more than meaningless pretty lights?

    Think of it this way. What is the BIG God’s plan? “Zoom out,” if you will, and imagine yourself in space looking down at earth. Look at the big picture, and not just isolated events that happen to individual people, wars with countries, natural disasters and such. Next, ask yourself these questions.

    * Why did God created humanity in the first place, and what was the point?
    * Where was he going with this idea?
    * What’s in it for him?
    * What would be the end result be for humanity as a whole?

    To answer those questions, people say read the Bible. Things start to get weird from there. The Bible tells the story of Adam and Eve. God created the Universe, Earth, plants, animals, and also two people from dust and a rib all in a 6 days, and on the 7th day he rested. There’s already a couple questions I have at this point.

    * How can he create the universe and the earth from nothing at all, but need dust from the earth to create Adam, and then Adam’s rib to create Eve?
    * Why did it take 6 days when he has the power to create it all in just 1 billionth of a second?
    * The 7th day is the Sabbath, as we all know. Why did he “rest” on the 7th day when he was already done with the Universe and the Earth in the first 6 days? That implies that he was going to do more work on the 8th day and so on. Everything in existence was already here, so he was naturally resting because there was nothing more to be created.
    * And why would he even need to rest in the first place? I guess he gets tired.
    * Why did God make the 7th day of the week a holy day of rest then?

    Sounds a little strange already, but he’s God, he can do whatever he wants. And being all-powerful as he is, there’s no reason he wouldn’t do something like that even if he didn’t need to.

    Next he creates the garden of Eden. In this garden, he creates a tree with magical fruit that when when eaten, bestows wisdom of “good and evil.” But God doesn’t want them to eat the magical fruit, so he tells them that they better not, or else they’ll die. Better stay away from that! I’m sure we know the rest, but ask yourself these things before you dwell on it any further:

    * If they ate the fruit, they would gain wisdom? Did God create them dumb, then?
    * What is the point so far? An experiment of some sort? To have a couple dumbed down pets?
    * Why create the temptation of the Tree of Life with fruit that when eaten, is punishable by death in the form of mortality? That’s like saying that eating the fruit will give you cancer that will eventually lead to your death.

    Next comes a big conundrum:

    * If God knows ANYTHING about the future, as soon as he created the tree of life with the “wisdom fruit” on it, he would have known that Eve was going to eat it.

    Well, maybe he either doesn’t know the future then, or just didn’t “look into it” before that. It’s safe to say that it is impossible to know the future because it hasn’t happened yet. That throws out the possibility of making “plans” for people. There’s no point in planning anything if there’s no guarantees and everything is coincidence. Like the Bible for example. That puts a limit on a supposedly all-powerful God.

    * Where did the “talking serpent” come from that suckered Eve into eating the fruit? It doesn’t mention the “talking serpent’s” creation so far in the story. Sure God created all the animals including snakes already, but they couldn’t talk.. right? Well, it turns out that the “talking snake” is that pesky Satan guy, who can apparently shape-shift.
    * If Satan can shape-shift and is invisible, then what other powers does he have and what are the limits on those magical powers?
    * If God knows what you’re thinking at all times, then why didn’t he intervene with Eve or Satan while Satan was tempting her, and while Eve was contemplating on eating the fruit? And why did he have to “search” for Adam and Eve after they ate the fruit and hid from God?
    * What was in it for Satan to have tempted Eve? To laugh at them when God punished them?

    Apparently, Satan lived in heaven, didn’t like something God did and started a war and was cast down to Earth, or so the story goes. Thank you God for sending that jerk down here for us to deal with. Every story needs a bad guy, I guess.

    * If Satan was here this early in the story, and isn’t written to have been created with Adam and Eve, then God obviously had something else going on before Earth.
    * Heaven had to exist before Earth in order for Satan to have developed his supposed history of being Gods favorite angel, starting a war, then being cast down here on Earth. If heaven already existed, then what was his reason then for making the Universe and Earth as a side “project?”
    * If God’s punishment to Satan was casting him down to Earth, then maybe the Earth was created as his prison.
    * Maybe the “war” was going on while God was in the 6 day process of this creation, got fed up with Satan’s antics, then cast him down here and banned him from heaven. That’s actually not a valid reason if God can just will the Universe into existence in just 1 billionth of a second.
    * If God knows the future, then why was Satan his favorite angel if he knew he would turn against him and eventually start a war? If God doesn’t know the future, then that can’t apply.
    * Why would God cast the evil Satan down to Earth to let him mess with us and deceive people with other religions in the first place? Why would he even allow Satan to do so?
    * What if Satan doesn’t exist? Then every story in the Bible mentioning him and demons is a LIE. The temptation of Jesus story and Jesus casting the “Legion, for we are many” demons out of the swine, for example, are lies.

    * What else in the Bible is false then?

    * If Eve was made from Adam’s rib, then wouldn’t she be considered to be of Adam’s genetic material, basically making her Adam’s sister? Their children would be born mentally retarded because of incest, and their children’s children would just be one huge regressive slope further and further into retardation. It’s safe to say God had to mess with the DNA in the womb, then.
    * If God messed with the DNA of the generations of incest children originating from Adam and Eve, who by nature, are supposed to be born retarded, then why are there so many birth defects that originate in the womb today? Why doesn’t he mess with the DNA of children anymore?
    * If the creation story isn’t true, then what IS the creation story? The answer to this question being right or wrong has a PROFOUND impact on ALL religions and their creation stories. If it isn’t true, then we didn’t “spontaneously appear.” Evolution, the Big Bang, and many other theories are true. All of which have actually have evidence supporting them.

    My Summary

    Something is not right here. I already have over *20* questions and valid points with no reasonable answers that would make much logical sense at all! And that’s just barely into first couple chapters in the Bible. Almost everything in the Bible can be fundamentally regressed all the way back to some of these basic questions. God is kind of a weird dude. Maybe then, the creation story isn’t entirely true and is just a story passed down by ancient man through generations of oral stories and tradition. The problem with oral tradition is that it’s word of mouth. Word of mouth being passed down is problematic in that things get skewed, embellished, altered, and exaggerated to glorify that culture, and that culture’s religion and God. They can be entirely false rumors from the beginning for disinformation and manipulative purposes. That seems to be the most likely of cases. So If that’s truly the case with the Bible’s creation story, then why should any other story and words of the ancient authors of the Bible be taken any more seriously and as truth? Every religion and culture has their own creation stories, and of course their own Gods. And some of them are incredibly far fetched. Why is this one any different?

  • 2. Anti-Devil  |  July 19, 2008 at 6:09 pm

    Lol dearest brother,,,truely speaking..i pity u…I didnt even bother to read the first sentence…i bet u r wasting ur time..i pity u brother..but i love u

  • 3. Anti-Devil  |  July 19, 2008 at 6:10 pm

    AND btw..everything god does…u will never know..becuz he is too powerful,the things he does…u don even know a Thing not even the size of an atom to the speed of light=D

  • 4. Anti-Devil  |  July 20, 2008 at 1:56 pm

    and btw u write as if u wan to understand god,its ok for a human to want to understand god,but god is far too intelligent and have a big plan..that we humans really don’t understand..because we are limited and god is almighty. and btw u haven answer me how did everything come about,I challenge ALL ATHEIST with this question,the burden of proof is on u atheist now

  • 5. smjkim  |  July 22, 2008 at 10:35 pm

    For the argument of saying “then why didn’t God bother making a better human or a better world?”, I’d say that if God made a truly perfect world and so forth, it wouldn’t be creation, it’d simply be an extension of God himself, the Perfect Being. This is under the assumption that God IS perfect/infinite/omni-xxx being. It’s His way of glorifying himself, I guess.

    I think God did what he did because He is love. Love is diffusive. One can’t love himself, there has to be another agent and more importantly, there has to be an option for that other agent to say “no”. If that’s not the case, then it’s not love.

    This may sound weird, but any creation that God creates has to be a less than a perfect being, because if it’s perfect, then it will be God. I read somewhere saying that there is no forces of evil working against the forces of good, evil is simply a lack of “good” or lack of “perfection”. This seems to make sense to me because that’s what God’s creations are like… NOT God.

    I’d totally agree with Luke’s point that God’s creation would be pointless if he knew Eve would eat the fruit and condemn all mankind in the process. Why bother if there is nothing but suffering and a great portion of mankind not being able to know God? I think that’s where Jesus comes in. There’s a verse in the scripture which I can’t remember where for the life of me, but it went along the lines of “all of mankind were condemned by the wrongdoings of one man, and by one man’s sacrifice, all man will be saved.”… something like that.

    As for criticizing Eve’s creation from Adam’s ribs and how that counts as an incest, I don’t want to go there. I would’ve thought more in the lines of a cloning process, but that wouldn’t make Luke’s point stronger.

  • 6. Luke  |  July 27, 2008 at 5:52 am

    For the argument of saying “then why didn’t God bother making a better human or a better world?”, I’d say that if God made a truly perfect world and so forth, it wouldn’t be creation, it’d simply be an extension of God himself, the Perfect Being.
    –Unfortunately, this doesn’t make much sense at all. Anything “made” is a creation. God doesn’t have to be “perfect or loving.” God can be whatever he wants. He can be Arrogant, megalomaniacal, jealous, evil, genocidal, mean, a liar, spontaneous, ruthless, and even nonsensical in the sense that he doesn’t have to have any real point or meaning to his antics whether it be what he creates, or what he does with his creations. Sadly, all those adjectives fit. Aside from that, your answer is just a vague, abstract, and pretty way to answer the “making earth/humanity better” question.

    This may sound weird, but any creation that God creates has to be a less than a perfect being, because if it’s perfect, then it will be God.
    –More pretty, flowery stuff. “Perfect this, perfect that.” How is God perfect? Because he doesn’t have any flaws? What constitutes as flawless? Is it because God is without sin? No way. God can do whatever he wants whenever he wants, and there’s no one to stop him, or anyone he has to answer to.

    I’d totally agree with Luke’s point that God’s creation would be pointless if he knew Eve would eat the fruit and condemn all mankind in the process. Why bother if there is nothing but suffering and a great portion of mankind not being able to know God? I think that’s where Jesus comes in.
    –I think Jesus came in as the excuse to convert more people to Judaism that weren’t Hebrew Jews. Jesus was all about reaching out to the “gentiles,” which are non-Jews of course. What better way to expand a religion than by opening it from being limited to just one culture to then being available to the whole world and all cultures?

    There’s a verse in the scripture which I can’t remember where for the life of me, but it went along the lines of “all of mankind were condemned by the wrongdoings of one man, and by one man’s sacrifice, all man will be saved.”… something like that.
    –Yeah, it sounds pretty and all, but is it true? If God doesn’t exist, then Jesus isn’t God’s “son,” he didn’t perform miracles, he wasn’t resurrected, and it’s all just myths and legends to begin with in order to deify a normal man for whatever agenda the authors had.

    As for criticizing Eve’s creation from Adam’s ribs and how that counts as an incest, I don’t want to go there. I would’ve thought more in the lines of a cloning process, but that wouldn’t make Luke’s point stronger.
    –It’s interesting that you mention a “cloning process,” because that’s exactly the way the Bible describes it. Adam was put to sleep as if by an anaesthesiologist, cut open, had his rib taken out, and sewn back up as if by a surgeon. There’s two things to note here. First off, why did God go through all that trouble when he could just snap his fingers and make a woman appear? Second, it doesn’t sound like a God at all, but a genetic scientist who came here and messed with our DNA.

  • 7. Gordon  |  November 15, 2008 at 6:09 am

    When Moses transcribed the Torah from one-on-one interactions with God telling him how stuff happened, do you think God simplified it for his simple mind? Or would you want Genesis to be a multi-volume set of the natural and human history of the world, both historically accurate and sufficient to withstand secular evidence? This would be akin to an angel showing up on your doorstep telling you God exists and loves you. You would ere on the side of belief out of either: fear and/or obligation. Would you marry a woman who was only with you out of fear or obligation? Of course not! You would want her to marry you by choice, by love, and for love. God wants us to make the same decision for ourselves regarding a relationship with Him. That decision, is truly and only authentically made by faith.

    I think to answer the question: Why did God make it all? Would be the same thing as asking two parents: why did you decide to have children? Or why does the guitarist write songs? Creativity is at the heart of creation folks (…wow, that sounds like a John Madden quote…) but more importantly, so is love. Those who create want to fashion something like them, with their mark, with their touch, their love, etc.. from what the Bible teaches us, is God’s mysterious and universal character any different?

    My biggest concern right now is people looking at the Bible as science, and not as a story – a story of God’s love for man, and what he did to restore that love.

  • 8. sirian  |  January 11, 2010 at 1:44 am

    Come on people. Everyone knows Zeus created God. I mean Zues was the king of the Gods. How could this not be the case.


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